tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post8531483595345711833..comments2023-12-27T03:14:25.897-05:00Comments on Takoma Talk: Do Historic Designations Hinder Takoma's Future?Tony Camillihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15088299609340862762noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-88736783557899990922016-02-23T20:54:57.536-05:002016-02-23T20:54:57.536-05:00Thank you Gilbert for your thoughts and for your e...Thank you Gilbert for your thoughts and for your excellent blog Granola Park, which I enjoy immensely!<br /><br />I haven't been inside the Seekers church, but I do agree that it's the nicest storefront of the bunch that I mentioned in this post. The remaining storefronts are rather ... devoid of the integrating aesthetic that Seekers has, however.<br /><br />As I noted in the post, many people smarter than I tend to define "historic" in terms of preserving "the aesthetic beauty" of a neighborhood. There's no question in my mind that those lovely houses hiding behind the storefronts would be historic given their architectural character and visual appeal. <br /><br />So I'm not advocating for tearing those old homes down, but I also don't believe the houses, as modified by the mostly non-historic storefronts, are deserving of the same protections as similar homes lying within a historic district. <br /><br />Historic districts have their place in Takoma and elsewhere, but we must also not forget that DC suffers from a crisis of unaffordability and experts in urban planning and smart growth regularly cite the importance of building density near transit. If those homes were preserved with their original integrity then I'd be all for full protection, but cities must change and evolve to fulfill the needs of their residents and this entire block near Takoma Metro station would provide much more utility as a mixed-use development in my opinion.Tony Camillihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15088299609340862762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-61289795285895130052016-02-23T15:59:08.386-05:002016-02-23T15:59:08.386-05:00Tony, if you haven't already, you should try t...Tony, if you haven't already, you should try to get a tour of the Seeker's Church. That is one of the old 19th century houses with a business tacked on front sometime in the early 20th century. The church did a fantastic job of integrating/renovating the old and newer structures, and they improved the look of the front with a pleasant design and enlarged windows. <br /><br />It shows what could be done with those buildings.<br /><br />Also, take a stroll into the Seeker Church back parking lot. From there you can plainly see the lineup of old, historic houses. <br /><br />I don't understand what you think "historic" is supposed to look like. The way that block is now, you can plainly see the history of the area. You can see the original houses were built beside a level street, that the underpass came later. And then the business facades. It all tells a story. If it were all torn down, the story would go with it. It would all be bland and uninteresting.<br /><br />I suggest it is better to leave the block as is and build multi-story housing/commercial space where the CVS is. The old, quaint buildings add to the desirability of the area. William L. Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11468671425502535915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-65139200334607328882016-02-21T23:27:59.549-05:002016-02-21T23:27:59.549-05:00Thanks Susan for your comment. I think you read i...Thanks Susan for your comment. I think you read into my piece a bit more than I said. I am not advocating for the removal of any of the businesses that occupy these storefronts, but rather asking the question whether the storefronts themselves deserve historic protection status in the event that they were bought by a developer.<br /><br />Even if the storefronts were there before the historic district was created, I don't understand how anyone would consider them historic in nature. What's the reason they are historic? I'm no architect, but I know enough to know these storefronts are not architecturally significant. <br /><br />Unlike Brian, I think that Main Street Takoma is a good retail spot, but there's indeed room for improvement. I agree that the CVS building is a disaster, even though I think having a CVS is useful for the hood. One can hope that it will get demolished when their lease is up and something more appropriate will be designed as its replacement but that's a long time down the road.<br /><br />And let's be clear that I have no problem with the TPSS Coop. So many people have joined my coalition to get a Trader Joe's in Takoma because there will soon be another 600+ apartments right by the Metro and people don't want to see a Giant or Safeway open there. Trader Joe's may not be local, but they have small stores and there's no denying they stock good products at a fair price. It would hardly compete with the Coop if it was located by the Metro because people wanting better prices would just drive to Safeway in DC. But having a TJ's (or another small grocery store) in walking distance of the Metro station would decrease driving and give locals a choice and I think both of these are laudable goals.<br /><br />You're right that there is a lot of good things that already exist in Takoma, but there's also some bad (i.e. CVS building) and even some ugly (i.e. the Takoma business center). My goal with this blog is to ask some hard questions about what can be done to avoid the bad and ugly.Tony Camillihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15088299609340862762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-70644295346744716562016-02-21T22:59:06.983-05:002016-02-21T22:59:06.983-05:00Funny that you say this b/c I too am aghast that E...Funny that you say this b/c I too am aghast that EYA isn't planning any retail with its complex right by Metro. Might have something to do with the project being mostly located on Eastern Ave instead of Carroll Street, which is where I would argue it should go. I know some people want to save the little tree park by the Metro, but I don't see how it makes sense there.Tony Camillihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15088299609340862762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-880880654245296762016-02-21T22:54:50.035-05:002016-02-21T22:54:50.035-05:00Thanks Richard for your comment - I appreciate it....Thanks Richard for your comment - I appreciate it. But I do wonder how these storefronts would be considered "layering?" Presumably you've seen them and know that they hardly look anything like the original buildings. To me a common-sense interpretation of layering would mean minor changes that do not greatly change the appearance of the original structures. I find the storefronts to be antithetical to their original structures. But that's just my opinion and I'm not sitting on the HPRB.Tony Camillihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15088299609340862762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-47914342612019120652016-02-21T12:50:50.983-05:002016-02-21T12:50:50.983-05:00Brian Rostron, some content with your unending sna...Brian Rostron, some content with your unending snark would help.Bob Seehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14860144617310043708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-73339112711580664482016-02-21T12:49:45.706-05:002016-02-21T12:49:45.706-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Bob Seehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14860144617310043708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-19604192537072505822016-02-20T09:16:45.068-05:002016-02-20T09:16:45.068-05:00People on the other side of town seem to think tha...People on the other side of town seem to think that Old Takoma is an interesting and vibrant commercial district. I don't see where this idea comes from. I see fairly low value and low utility shops, not to mention the fortune tellers, greasy pizza joints, and now numerous empty storefronts at Takoma Junction. And what is this "fairly easy access" to grocery stores including Trader Joe's. Are you really suggesting that residents of old Takoma walk or take the bus there? My understanding is that they drive their internal combustion death machines there. Some "community values." Oh, and I'm not aware of Langley Park having a farmer's market. Are you talking about the one on my street (Anne) in Takoma Park?WestBerkeleyFlatshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11445701958269444184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-65438515666687755842016-02-20T00:14:44.781-05:002016-02-20T00:14:44.781-05:00As DK noted above, the streetscape along this sect...As DK noted above, the streetscape along this section of Carroll Street has not changed substantially in 100 years, since the land in front of those houses was removed in the process of creating the underpass. But there's another aspect that's worth preserving, too. The small businesses and resources that you list contribute to what makes this community alive and interesting. Seekers Church has done a great job of turning that building into a welcoming space, and its concert series is a great addition to the community, but the others have value, too - and might not be there were it not for a strip that's a bit of a jumble, as opposed to the more upscale and polished environment you envision, Tony. <br /><br />The situation with the CVS is yes, very unfortunate. When Doc was ready to sell the Park Pharmacy, he couldn't get anyone interested in taking it over - a vacuum CVS was only too happy to fill. And not being in the Takoma DC historic district, there was little that the community on either side could do. (Reluctantly, CVS did agree to continue the brick around the building, and not only on the front) - except to make so many calls to company headquarters about the huge LED sign flashing ads and announcements that the company finally agreed to turn the lights off. <br /><br />On the other hand, Tony, with historic district designation and a lot of work and persistence, we have managed to keep out chains. (Subway being the sole exception.) As Frances Phipps notes in her comments about Montgomery College's expansion plan, the beauty of this community - and I would add its soul and character as well as the build environment - did come about, nor has it been sustained, by accident. You are obviously a big fan of Trader Joe's, having lobbied for a TJ in downtown Silver Spring when you lived there. But this is a different community. We have a Food Coop organized around community values, including purchasing from local farmers and providers, with fairly easy access to Whole Foods, Safeway, Giant, and Trader Joe's, as well as a vibrant farmer's market in the center of town and one in Langley Park. - <br /><br />Right now, we've got the potential for a lot of changes ahead with all the new housing development coming in. Better to build on Takoma Park's strengths than cast aside what's been accomplished. - Susan Schreiber<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129065683668383676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-55516646187464830332016-02-18T10:50:32.607-05:002016-02-18T10:50:32.607-05:00P.S., for business reasons there is no way in hell...P.S., for business reasons there is no way in hell a Trader Joe's will located in Takoma, which I discussed in elists and the Manor Park neighborhood group. Takoma has roughly 1/3 the population//density of Capitol Hill and 1/6 the population/density of either Foggy Bottom or 14th St./U Street.<br /><br />It all comes down to population and economic demographics. Takoma doesn't register on the TJ scale. That being said, I have argued there are at least two alternatives, but it requires the community coming together and forcing EYA to add retail to their proposed development at the Metro station.Richard Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02765521217875752850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-83873335006480919762016-02-18T10:47:35.372-05:002016-02-18T10:47:35.372-05:00Those are different questions from your desire for...Those are different questions from your desire for more construction of new housing on affordable housing grounds. There, the argument for demolition has little to do with questions of historicity and more to do with what are called "special merit" considerations, where for other reasons it is decided that it can be acceptable for buildings deemed historic to be demolished.Richard Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02765521217875752850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-44583394598398894242016-02-18T10:45:55.943-05:002016-02-18T10:45:55.943-05:00In the DC preservation law legal structure, loss o...In the DC preservation law legal structure, loss of "integrity" (historicity, architectural, etc.) in terms of the era and style of significance is a key consideration in whether or not to designate a building.<br /><br />However, there is also the concept of layering, and the building extensions that you discuss as counter to the original integrity of the building could be deemed historic in their own right.Richard Laymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02765521217875752850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-66193671831668238132016-02-02T12:00:51.212-05:002016-02-02T12:00:51.212-05:00kenf - this post is really directed towards Takoma...kenf - this post is really directed towards Takoma, DC, but I get your point.Tony Camillihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15088299609340862762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-31778263333633902152016-02-02T11:59:36.865-05:002016-02-02T11:59:36.865-05:00I've heard Trohv will be split into 3 parts to...I've heard Trohv will be split into 3 parts too. It's good to read that the space will be filled for economic reasons (even if it's a vilified national coffee chain), but it's unfortunate the way the Trohv building is situated. It's wasted space being 1-story, and the sidewalks are atrocious along that entire side of Carroll St. I would prefer to see that entire lot redeveloped into something mixed-use like Takoma Central.Tony Camillihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15088299609340862762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-25639467694440024912016-02-02T11:56:04.212-05:002016-02-02T11:56:04.212-05:00This is sad if true - I can't believe anyone w...This is sad if true - I can't believe anyone would consider the storefronts to be historic in nature. I would call them "dated" at best, but just being old doesn't make it aesthetically significant.Tony Camillihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15088299609340862762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-21697673047229486702016-02-02T11:54:26.021-05:002016-02-02T11:54:26.021-05:00No disagreement here about CVS. A wasted opportun...No disagreement here about CVS. A wasted opportunity and a good lesson on the importance of maximizing our land utility nearby a Metro station. On a related note, the ped experience near CVS and many other sidewalks in Takoma by the Metro is awful when compared to Takoma Central. Sure sidewalks exist, but we have 2 toddlers and usually are driving a stroller, which sucks when the sidewalks were built wide enough for supermodels.Tony Camillihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15088299609340862762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-11647691806540847092016-02-02T11:50:58.133-05:002016-02-02T11:50:58.133-05:00Sara - good point of clarification above. I don&#...Sara - good point of clarification above. I don't believe that any new development in the historic district should be exempt from the HPRB process, but clearly these houses lack historic value since they are not even visible anymore. What I'm suggesting is that any redevelopment of the lots where these houses currently reside should not require preserving the houses but preserve the HPRB process for new construction, which would provide any potential developer with some ability to create a viable project like the Takoma Central building.<br /><br />And I cannot speak to the market and zoning conditions that would be acceptable to TJ's or any other business. I don't represent TJ's other than being a fan of their stores and products and I believe they would be a good addition to Takoma in a way that wouldn't greatly impact the business of the Coop or the Farmer's market. Tony Camillihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15088299609340862762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-90653030077563001202016-02-02T11:43:06.782-05:002016-02-02T11:43:06.782-05:00How do we know if these homes are "historic&q...How do we know if these homes are "historic" if they're hidden from plain view behind storefronts that are clearly not historic? True they are located in a historic district, but the district just provides us with the boundaries of what properties are required to get approval by the HPRB before significant redevelopment can occur. I agree that lack of demand appears to be the problem for more economic development in Old Town but that should change with the added apartments coming soon.Tony Camillihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15088299609340862762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-38271976736230208152016-02-01T11:56:19.780-05:002016-02-01T11:56:19.780-05:00I've heard the Trovh will be broken into 3 sep...I've heard the Trovh will be broken into 3 separate places. They will get more rent income that way. I also hear that a very popular coffee chain will be among the renters.deathblosomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12308926257545535385noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-29083084956218824882016-02-01T09:26:30.169-05:002016-02-01T09:26:30.169-05:00A small clarification - the storefronts cited sit...A small clarification - the storefronts cited sitting in front of older houses have been in this configuration since 1912 when the underpass to the railroad tracks was dug. This block's historic status always included the streetscape as we see it today. dk in takomahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09265927876063097713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-30464546262440298332016-01-31T10:13:52.429-05:002016-01-31T10:13:52.429-05:00Looking at recent commercial development in Takoma...Looking at recent commercial development in Takoma, the CVS development was an unfortunate missed opportunity: first, the lot isn't in the historic district (check out http://propertyquest.dc.gov/ for a usually very accurate mapping of DC HDs) so for the "anti-HD" folks and developers, this could have been an opportunity to show what can happen without the "negatives" imposed by HPRB review. Second, it could have been designed to create a better experience for walkers - e.g., having storefronts like at Takoma Central, rather than a typical suburban CVS surrounded by a parking lot. Third, it could have included more tenants, and possibly residents. We need to maximize the potential of what we already have - e.g., improving/ rehabbing existing structures, leasing up to capacity, and when building (n) construction, ensure that it maximizes the "pedestrian" experience (like Takoma Central). Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12449534793266413596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-48787906009579041322016-01-30T16:53:02.228-05:002016-01-30T16:53:02.228-05:00(And to add to the above) - I don't understand...(And to add to the above) - I don't understand from your post how historic designation prevents a Trader Joe's from coming in i(the one on 14th St in DC in the Greater U St Historic District). What are the market and zoning conditions that would be acceptable to TJs if they were to set up shop in the Trohv location, e.g.?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12449534793266413596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-81821630112582723572016-01-30T16:44:09.545-05:002016-01-30T16:44:09.545-05:00Tony - It isn't clear from your post whether t...Tony - It isn't clear from your post whether the buildings you mention are individually significant historic structures and also contributing historic resources to the historic district, or are noncontributing structures to the historic district. Even if they are noncontributing structures and can more easily be demolished to make way for new construction, that new construction would be subject to review by the DC Historic Preservation Review Board, and the new construction would need to adhere to standards for new construction in a historic district. Is your argument that the new construction in a historic district should not be subject to the review and standards of HPRB?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12449534793266413596noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-51992792993951470522016-01-30T15:29:20.131-05:002016-01-30T15:29:20.131-05:00Structures in the Takoma Park, MD historic distric...Structures in the Takoma Park, MD historic district are classified as outstanding, contributing and non contributing. The classification determines what can, and cannot be done to the exterior of the structure. kenfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08276884726616782475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1107566680788563943.post-43354435756397068962016-01-30T08:20:46.960-05:002016-01-30T08:20:46.960-05:00Huh? I don't think that being located behind ...Huh? I don't think that being located behind another building diminishes the historic nature of a building. On the other hand, there is a difference between a "historic home" and a home located in a designated historic district. I can't believe that the homes in question are truly historic or architecturally significant, but they are located in a historic district. Moreover, I don't think that historic preservation has been the primary obstacle to economic development in the Takoma area. After all, aren't there still underused commercial properties that could be redeveloped for higher dense and use? It would appear that the limiting factor previously was lack of demand, but that may be changing.WestBerkeleyFlatshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11445701958269444184noreply@blogger.com